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Dean PlassarasJune 8, 2012 at 00:00 #
and, oh BTW. This is how Der Spiegel framed Tsipras in the article above dated laste February:
“Tsipras, on the other hand, wants to keep the euro. He wants “Greece to remain a systemic problem for Europe.” He argues that this is the only way to ensure that the billions from the bailout packages are actually disbursed, and the only way to ensure that Europe, fearing the risk of contagion that would emanate from a Greek bankruptcy, will defer Greece’s debts, or perhaps even forgive them one day. This is what Tsipras is betting on. It’s a crude, extortionist way of thinking.”
And you keep telling me that Tsipras is not Merkel’s creation. But of course he is. If there wasn’t a Merkel there wouldn’t be a Tsipras.
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Guest (xenos)June 8, 2012 at 15:19 #
You are really an arrogant son-of-a-bitch. And for Christ’s sake, why are you quoting Der Spiegel at us, when it is part of the German propaganda machinery? OK, it is interesting to know what they publish, but I do not have to accept that their opinion has any validity as a scientific analysis. Far from it, anything that they publish should be regarded with great suspicion.
As far as your analysis of cause and effect is concerned, I find it very superficial and unconvincing. Obviously the rise of a smaller party to power is connected with recent internal and external events: this does not lead inevitably to patterns of direct causality involving individuals, nor does it allocate such a concept as “responsibility” — a concept that you seem to have invented for yourself.
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Hello Dean
You have lost me. You are saying that Merkel created Tsipras?
If you are, for what reason? To make the country default? Germany could have done that in 2008 by refusing to contribute money to the Greek government.
If Germany wants to snap up Greek land and utilities on the cheap, they could have done that in 2008 by refusing any bail out money.
and so on and so forth.
If you are saying Tsipras is there to make Greece dependent on Germany for what reason?
What good is it to BMW and Audi if German taxpayers are poorer because they are giving money to the black hole Greek government and what benefit is it to VW, BMW, Siemens if Greeks are too poor to buy anything?
You see what I am saying? Germany is not gaining anything from the current situation and if they wanted to “destroy” the country they could have done it in 2008. (Destroy is a media term, personally I think default would be a breath of fresh air)
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DemetrisJune 8, 2012 at 20:37 #
Richard
During the crisis Germany’s domestic production increased ,because of the diminishing growth in the periphery. Ofcourse this is only temporary.
The thing is ,till now Germany earned a lot. Germany didn’t actually pay. Only 15 b. while at the end Germany profited. But if it continues the same game ,it will lose a lot.
if Germany wanted to get land and utilities on the cheap ,it wouldn’t be able to get it cheap back then. Only when time passes and quality of life diminishes enough ,can one acquire more assets at a bargain.
Also i must repeat again ,that it is not about Germany in particular. Nationality is unimportant to corporations.
And the black hole is not the Greek government by itself ,but the whole f@cking system.
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Dean PlassarasJune 8, 2012 at 20:52 #
Guys:
Try not to be humorless, will you?
When I get into these moods of abusing you, I just can’t help it.
Can’t you guys tell the difference?
Xenos: Yes, I insist. There are two genuine Merkel creations in the Greek political scene. One is Tsipras. The other is Xrysi Avgi (the Greek neoNazi party). 100% both of the them Made in Germany.
Richard: I don’t subscribe to the notion that Merkel wants to save Greece. All of our politicians who can now finally talk openly (Papandreou and Papaconstantinou) tell us that Merkel wanted Greece to hurt from the beginning, not for Greece’s own good, but as an example of avoidance to others. There have been whole articles on the subject, that’s why Merkel is so unpopular in Greece. Because she comes across as a mean woman with her own agenda.
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Dean. You haven’t convinced me. If Germany wanted to set an example they would have let the country default, that would have also have been cheaper.
About the hurt. This has absolutely nothing to do with Merkel. This is a very important point that needs to be understood. The Greek politicians are working with Goldman Sachs to hurt the country.
There is absolutely no need for Greece to experiencing this amount of pain it is completely self inflicted with the sole aim of making Germany look bad.
I would say mission accomplished.
And forget about Greece not defaulting, this will happen, everybody knows it, the only reason it is taking so long is so the banks can extract as much liquid cash as possible from the country before the default
Google this also this “controlled demolition greek economy” independence4wales
Also if you Google “7 ways papandreou sabotaged the greek economy” and read this article with the idea that this was all done to wear down Germany’s resistance to the rampant printing or Euros.
You talk about countries
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AristotelesJune 12, 2012 at 12:56 #
@Very Reasonable Richard:
“Dean. You haven’t convinced me.”
From all your comments here it is very clear that you poses extraodrinary reasoning power, so it is very difficult for anyone here to convince such an “Übermensch” spirit!
“If Germany wanted to set an example they would have let the country default, that would have also have been cheaper.”
Your superb economical wisdom strikes me my friend! So you mean that it is cheaper for the Greek creditors (Germany, France, etc.) if one defaults than if one is kept deeply debt stricken for ever?
You obsviously expose here totally new economic truths!“About the hurt. This has absolutely nothing to do with Merkel. This is a very important point that needs to be understood. The Greek politicians are working with Goldman Sachs to hurt the country. There is absolutely no need for Greece to experiencing this amount of pain it is completely self inflicted with the sole aim of making Germany look bad.”
Another one of your very interesting theories
I fully agree with you! It is a terrible conspiracy by Goldman Sachs with the help of alcoholic Greek politicians in order to make Germany look bad!!!
They want to twist the truth about the honourable intentions of the German government!
Just like in the past were the Americans and the Jews invented all this stupid lies about Germany?“Also if you Google “7 ways papandreou sabotaged the greek economy” and read this article with the idea that this was all done to wear down Germany’s resistance to the rampant printing or Euros”
Wow you finally have the answer why all this was done! It was perpetrated so that they wear down Germany’s resistance to the rampant printing or Euros!
And you mean that would be bad for you? May I ask you one simple question?
How much money do you have in your bank account? If you don’t happen to be a millionair or billionair why do you even bother if new money is printed?
Are you equally bothered about the high taxes and prices in the Eurozone in the same way you are concerned about the printing of new money?
Most likely not because you don’t have a clue about the impact of public and private debt on taxes and prices! Are you bothered about low economic growth in the Eurozone? No? Than you better investigate the impact of the bankind systems greed and fallacy on the real economy but you are obviously much more concerned about printing new money! -
Hello Aristoteles, long reply coming up!
You didnt really explain why you think my theories are wrong but let me take the points you did make one by one.
1.
“Your superb economical wisdom strikes me my friend! So you mean that it is cheaper for the Greek creditors (Germany, France, etc.) if one defaults than if one is kept deeply debt stricken for ever?”
Creditors? Sorry, your saying taxpayers in Germany and Greece are the creditors? Because they are the ones paying the bills. Yes I am saying it would be cheaper for the taxpayer if they did not have to monetize the debt of the private sector through massive tax increases.
2.
They want to twist the truth about the honourable intentions of the German government!
Just like in the past were the Americans and the Jews invented all this stupid lies about Germany?I am saying most of the western countries are pushing for rampant inflation, Germany is the only one resisting and your argument is to bring up the second/first world war? Excellent, maybe you want to have a go at the Japanese people living in Tokyo today for Pearl Harbour? Come on if you think what I am saying is nonsense give me something to chew on.
3a
How much money do you have in your bank account? If you don’t happen to be a millionair or billionair why do you even bother if new money is printed?
If money is printed is will mean a government has borrowed it which means I will have to pay interest on money I will never see or benefit from.
3b
Are you equally bothered about the high taxes and prices in the Eurozone in the same way you are concerned about the printing of new money?
Sorry, you lost me here, are you implying high taxes & high prices are not the result of money printing?
3c
Most likely not because you don’t have a clue about the impact of public and private debt on taxes and prices!
Maybe I dont, if you could enlighten me
3d
Are you bothered about low economic growth in the Eurozone? No?
Economic growth is the the only thing I want. And it does not come from money printing, you seem to imply it does so let me give you an example.
You have 100 people on a desert island. There is 1000Drachma in circulation.
Do you think these people would get richer if the central bank of the island printed and extra 1000Drachma?
ie do you think the people on the island will be richer if they had 2000Drachma between them rather than 1000? Would they be able to buy more stuff? Would they be more productive? Would their savings increase in value? Would the quality of their lives increase?
3e
you better investigate the impact of the bankind systems greed and fallacy on the real economy but you are obviously much more concerned about printing new money!
Again you lost me here, are you implying that greed in the banking system is unrelated to money printing? Money printing is carried out by the banking system so I’m not sure what your point is here.
Your comment is awaiting moderation.
Richard, Very Serious Sam and Xenos:
First a WARNING! When you decide to go against Dean in a public debate you have to be supremely prepared. Just try to project your personal best and then raised it in the power of 10. Just saying….
As with the German crimes best supported by written German evidence during the Nuremberg trial, the fact that the rise of the Left in Greece is a direct byproduct of the flawed German policies has already been documented by Der Spiegel at least 3 months prior to the last elections in Greece.
This is undisputed evidence and notice the title connection: A rise of the Greek left IS a direct result of extreme austerity (aka Merkel’s precise recipe).
Not only Germany has been deliberately introducing this destabilizing factor in Greek politics but Germany also knew way in advance (way before any elections or any polls) that Germany was the real fabricator of the new Greek left.
This proposition is not only as solid evidence supported as they come, but it also makes political sense. Merkel wanted a political opponent in Greece to also be her own ideological opponent so that the subsequent German actions could be justified on pure political logic. The “oh, look Merkel is harsh on the Greeks but what do you expect? these Leftists are their main political opponent…and they are crazy anyway”. This is rudimentary stuff in political struggles and you pretend that you don’t even understand it?
Pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeease!!!!!!!!
http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/a-political-establishment-in-freefall-greece-lurches-to-left-amid-radical-austerity-a-816598.html